Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Edited by: Space Wanderer on 14/02/2009 08:47:26

Originally by: Dread Jack

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"Math" says it can be done with two.

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You might want to read the devs post about it, instead of complaining? If you won't, let me summarize it for you by saying that now probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature.

If with this bit of information you can't understand why you need at least four probes to locate a spot, my suggestion is you do not speak anymore about math (especially geometry) if you don't want to look silly.

EDIT: Anyway, I tried the new system finally, I couldn't find the spot due to insufficient sig strength, but I still enjoyed the new system a lot. It is an excellent blow to all the afk-ness of scanning. It still needs some tweaks because of the low low sig strengths, the uncomfortable widgets, and the wrong allocation of scan bonuses from skills/equipment, but it really looks very very promising.

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Originally by: Ayari

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The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions.

This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation.

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Originally by: Kopkiller

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Edited by: Kopkiller on 14/02/2009 12:28:20

Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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Originally by: Ayari

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The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions.

This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation.

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as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE.

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Stop saying stupid things. Triangulation works by its principle indepedently of number of dimensions, or you just didn't understand how it works at school.

And it's not the problem anyway, 99% of eve is not realistic "real life" wise.

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Originally by: BiggestT

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Slightly off topic but..

I find it hilarious that people claim that triangulation is useless in a 3d world (with depth), when thye use it themselves in a world of depth (the real world ofc).

Your using it right now!

Your eyes use triangulation to judge depth, distance and an overall location in a 3-D world.

As to why probes cannot use the same function I have no idea..seems very simple to implement...

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Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker

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Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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omg ... fail

triangulation only works on a 2d plane ... your eyes are refocusing rapidly on different points on the object, and yous brain is just fooling around with the results. that's why you can perceive 3d space on a 2d surface when you are presented the right picture. if this worked as you say, stereograms would never work for humans ...

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Yep, triangulation only works on a plane... pity that you can draw a plane through any three points you care to set... which means it works in 3d because it works in 2d ^^

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Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker

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Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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it works in 2d but that does not mean it works in 3d for exact location. a plane is still not a point in space, it's a plane. and a plane contains an infinite
number of points ... needle in haystack is freaking easy compare to that ...

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Its pretty easy... imagine a table. On that table three marbles. You know the location of two marbles, and you know the direction you have to take to get from either one of the marbles to the third. Triangulation says you now know the location of the third marble.

To make it 3d, simply lift the table on one side. If the marbles down fall to the floor (because they are sticky or whatever) they will still form a triangle on the table. Let the side of the table fall down, but the marbles will hold their place, and now you got a triangle in 3d, showing you triangulation still works in 3d...

BTW, how do you think surveyors cartographed the land? ^^

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Originally by: Xianthar

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Triangulation works on the surface of the earth to find "stuff" because with 3 known distances you get 2 possible locations for the unknown, if the known locations are properly spread out only 1 of those 2 possible points will be on the earths surface, thus you can rule out the other.

More known distances just help to account for inaccuracies in the distance measurement method which there is always some due to various issues. For instance the GPS system has to account for the fact that time travels slower on the earths surface than it does in orbit.

cheers

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Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker

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Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly).

however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-)

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You missed the fun part... it doesn't matter where the three points are, they ALWAYS are on a plane. That the plane isn't necessarily what we call horizontal doesn't matter. Draw a triangle on a piece of paper and start waving the paper around. No matter how oyu hold the piece of paper, you will always be able to get from two points to the third.

The eve system works diffrently, it measure distances, instead of directions. And even on piece of paper and a plane you will get two possible points, if you check distances between points.

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Originally by: Hoshi

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Edited by: Hoshi on 14/02/2009 21:51:00

Originally by: Xianthar

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its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it.

cheers

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Shouldn't be too hard to test, eject a ship, go back to the ship with a probe ships, launch 2 probes, move them with the arrows in straight opposite directions, scan.

Edit: just tested, does not give a warpable result.

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